Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (2024)

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Jonathan Weisman and Lisa Lerer

Hostile hopefuls sought to dent Trump’s commanding lead.

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Republican Candidates Exchange Insults in Fiery Second Debate

Hostility over foreign policy, education and Donald Trump dominated the second Republican presidential debate as seven candidates tried to shake up the race.

00:00:00.000 —> 00:00:02.029 Seven Republican presidential candidates 00:00:02.029 —> 00:00:05.120 bulldozed their way through a debate on the Fox Business 00:00:05.120 —> 00:00:07.280 Network on Wednesday night, shouting 00:00:07.280 —> 00:00:09.095 at each other at times. 00:00:09.095 —> 00:00:10.470 “Gentlemen, you’ll have your turn.” 00:00:10.470 —> 00:00:13.920 But in the end, they probably left unscathed 00:00:13.920 —> 00:00:17.480 the one person who was not on that stage, Donald 00:00:17.480 —> 00:00:19.200 Trump, the front-runner. 00:00:19.200 —> 00:00:20.310 “Thank you very much.” 00:00:20.310 —> 00:00:22.650 He was in Michigan giving a speech to workers. 00:00:22.650 —> 00:00:26.060 The candidates did raise issues from Ukraine 00:00:26.060 —> 00:00:28.520 to education, but whatever differences 00:00:28.520 —> 00:00:31.430 they had on the issues were more about style 00:00:31.430 —> 00:00:32.490 than substance. 00:00:32.490 —> 00:00:35.130 Nikki Haley really rose to the occasion. 00:00:35.130 —> 00:00:39.307 She was everywhere, attacking multiple candidates. 00:00:39.307 —> 00:00:40.640 “Honestly, every time I hear you, 00:00:40.640 —> 00:00:42.690 I feel a little bit dumber for what you say.” 00:00:42.690 —> 00:00:44.460 She went after Vivek Ramaswamy. 00:00:44.460 —> 00:00:45.870 She went after Ron DeSantis. 00:00:45.870 —> 00:00:48.680 At one point, she went after her fellow South Carolinian, 00:00:48.680 —> 00:00:49.530 Tim Scott. 00:00:49.530 —> 00:00:52.000 “Do your homework, Tim. You are scrapping.” 00:00:52.000 —> 00:00:54.080 Vivek Ramaswamy, who was really the star 00:00:54.080 —> 00:00:55.850 of the first debate in Milwaukee, 00:00:55.850 —> 00:00:57.300 couldn’t come up for air. 00:00:57.300 —> 00:00:57.833 “Excuse me. 00:00:57.833 —> 00:00:59.750 Thank you for speaking while I’m interrupting – 00:00:59.750 —> 00:01:00.960 interrupting while I’m speaking.” 00:01:00.960 —> 00:01:03.030 He was attacked incessantly. 00:01:03.030 —> 00:01:04.510 “We can’t trust you.” 00:01:04.510 —> 00:01:06.240 In one of the more memorable moments, 00:01:06.240 —> 00:01:10.920 Tim Scott took on Ron DeSantis for a curriculum in Florida 00:01:10.920 —> 00:01:11.950 on slavery. 00:01:11.950 —> 00:01:15.090 “Florida’s new Black history curriculum says, quote: 00:01:15.090 —> 00:01:18.580 Slaves develop skills which, in some instances, 00:01:18.580 —> 00:01:20.640 could be applied for their personal benefit.” 00:01:20.640 —> 00:01:23.850 “That’s a hoax that was perpetrated by Kamala Harris. 00:01:23.850 —> 00:01:25.650 We are not going to be doing that. 00:01:25.650 —> 00:01:28.170 Second of all, that was written by descendants 00:01:28.170 —> 00:01:28.710 of slaves.” 00:01:28.710 —> 00:01:32.100 “There is not a redeeming quality in slavery.” 00:01:32.100 —> 00:01:33.230 In general, 00:01:33.230 —> 00:01:36.180 Scott was much more present on Wednesday night 00:01:36.180 —> 00:01:38.075 than he was last month. 00:01:38.075 —> 00:01:38.930 “My wife...” 00:01:38.930 —> 00:01:41.700 Mike Pence tried to be a little more personable — 00:01:41.700 —> 00:01:44.640 “I’ve been sleeping with a teacher for 38 years” — 00:01:44.640 —> 00:01:47.010 talking at one point about sleeping with his wife 00:01:47.010 —> 00:01:50.550 and trying to land dad jokes that often were more awkward 00:01:50.550 —> 00:01:51.600 than funny. 00:01:51.600 —> 00:01:53.110 “Donald, I know you’re watching.” 00:01:53.110 —> 00:01:55.420 Chris Christie tried to tarnish the front-runner, 00:01:55.420 —> 00:01:57.270 Trump. He even at one point called him 00:01:57.270 —> 00:01:59.480 Donald Duck for missing the first two debates. 00:01:59.480 —> 00:02:00.580 “You keep doing that. 00:02:00.580 —> 00:02:02.070 No one up here is going to call you Donald Trump 00:02:02.070 —> 00:02:02.590 anymore. 00:02:02.590 —> 00:02:04.090 We’re going to call you Donald Duck.” 00:02:04.090 —> 00:02:06.520 And he got a little help from Ron DeSantis. 00:02:06.520 —> 00:02:08.560 “Donald Trump is missing in action. 00:02:08.560 —> 00:02:10.520 He should be on this stage tonight.” 00:02:10.520 —> 00:02:11.440 In the end. 00:02:11.440 —> 00:02:14.010 the seven candidates who entered the night far 00:02:14.010 —> 00:02:17.970 behind Donald Trump probably ended the night still 00:02:17.970 —> 00:02:20.420 far behind Donald Trump.

Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (3)

Seven Republican presidential hopefuls bulldozed their way Wednesday through a fierce and unruly debate, shouting at each other over foreign policy, energy exploration and technology but leaving largely untouched the front-runner who was not on the stage, Donald J. Trump.

The gathering at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, Calif., was surprisingly hostile. At the center of the free-for-all was Nikki Haley, the former governor of South Carolina and United Nations ambassador, who attacked Ron DeSantis, the Florida governor, Senator Tim Scott, her fellow South Carolinian, and Vivek Ramaswamy, the entrepreneur and political newcomer.

At one point, after listening to Mr. Ramaswamy defend his embrace of the Chinese-owned social media platform TikTok, Ms. Haley could not hide her disgust: “Every time I hear you I feel a little bit dumber,” she said.

But for all the fireworks, the debate likely did nothing to dent Mr. Trump’s commanding lead in the polls, with just three and a half months left before the Iowa caucuses. Chris Christie, the former governor of New Jersey, made an effort, tarring Mr. Trump as “Donald Duck” for his failure to show up to a debate for the second time in as many months.

“He needs to be voted off the island and he needs to be taken out of this process,” Mr. Christie said.

But the other candidates trained their fire on each other. Here were some of the key clashes:

  • Mr. Scott took Mr. DeSantis to task for a Florida school curriculum that would teach that slavery taught the enslaved useful skills. Mr. DeSantis did try to challenge Mr. Trump for adding $7.8 trillion to the national debt during his time as president.

  • It was Mr. Ramaswamy who took the most fire after his star turn in the first debate in August. At one point, Mr. Scott, Mr. DeSantis, and former Vice President Mike Pence ganged up on the 38-year-old political newcomer for his business ties to China and a foreign policy that would cede Eastern Ukraine to Russia and possibly Taiwan to China. “I’m glad Vivek pulled out of his business deal in China,” Mr. Pence said. “That must have been about the same time you decided to start voting in presidential elections.”

  • In the end, Ms. Haley was the dominant figure, skewering one candidate after another. She tarred Mr. Ramaswamy as naïve and foolish on foreign policy, then seamlessly turned on Mr. DeSantis for opposing fracking and offshore oil drilling in a state where beaches have always taken precedence over energy exploration, then pivoted to Mr. Scott to blast his record on government spending.

Sept. 28, 2023, 1:07 a.m. ET

Sept. 28, 2023, 1:07 a.m. ET

Anjali Huynh

Reporting on national politics

Newsom sparred with Hannity, offering a preview of his debate with DeSantis.

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Gov. Gavin Newsom of California sparred with the Fox News host Sean Hannity in a ten-minute conversation that may well preview the coming matchup between Mr. Newsom, a Democrat, and Ron DeSantis, Florida’s Republican governor.

Fox News earlier this week announced that the unusual debate between the two governors would take place on Nov. 30, calling it a “red vs. blue state debate.”

In talking with Mr. Hannity in the spin room after the Republican presidential debate, Mr. Newsom made his distaste for Mr. DeSantis clear.

“You just don’t like him,” Mr. Hannity said, to which Mr. Newsom shot back: “Well, I don’t like people who demonize other people or go after vulnerable communities, but I also don’t like liars.”

He offered praise to Nikki Haley, the former U.N. ambassador, for her remarks during the debate on Mr. DeSantis’s record.

Much of the conversation focused on gas prices and the southern border, with Mr. Newsom defending his state’s high gas prices as being the result of oil companies “ripping us off.” But Mr. Hannity also pressed Mr. Newsom on his White House ambitions.

Mr. Newsom immediately pivoted to praising President Biden.

“He’s got an extraordinary record to run on, and I couldn’t be more proud,” Mr. Newsom said of the president. “Objectively, he was the winner tonight.”

Mr. Newsom was seen as a likely candidate if Mr. Biden decided not to run. But Mr. Biden has made clear that he will, and Mr. Newsom has given the president his full support.

Pressed by Mr. Hannity on if he would “ever accept the Democratic nomination to run for president in 2024 under any circumstances at all,” Mr. Newsom assertively said he would not.

“No. It’s a hypothetical. It’s ridiculous. Joe Biden is our president,” Mr. Newsom said.

Mr. Hannity replied: “You call me ridiculous, I’m going to make you pay for my In-N-Out burger.”

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Sept. 28, 2023, 12:22 a.m. ET

Sept. 28, 2023, 12:22 a.m. ET

Angelo Fichera

“Ron DeSantis is against fracking. He is against drilling.”

— Nikki Haley, former governor of South Carolina

This requires context.

While Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida has recently said he supports offshore drilling and fracking in the country, he spoke out against it in Florida previously.

Read the full fact check.

Sept. 28, 2023, 12:05 a.m. ET

Sept. 28, 2023, 12:05 a.m. ET

Michael M. Grynbaum

Ilia Calderón’s questions stood out at the debate.

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She asked about the prevalence of hate crimes against L.G.B.T.Q. Americans, pressed candidates on their past anti-immigration remarks and waded into a dispute in Florida over public school teaching standards that suggested slaves had “developed skills which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit.”

Ilia Calderón, one of the three moderators of Wednesday’s Republican presidential primary debate, may not have been familiar to some viewers who tuned in to the Fox News and Fox Business channels. But her questions appeared to catch some candidates off-guard and touched on viewpoints that are not regularly expressed by leading Republican politicians or Fox’s conservative prime-time hosts.

Ms. Calderón, 51, is a co-anchor of the nightly newscast of Univision, which co-hosted the debate with Fox News Media and broadcast the proceedings in Spanish. Univision producers retained editorial control over Ms. Calderón’s questions.

Early on, she pointed out that Ronald Reagan, whose presidential library hosted the event, had granted amnesty to nearly three million immigrants, and pressed former Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey on a quip he made in 2015 about tracking immigrants the way FedEx tracks packages. (“What we have to do now is first treat this like the law enforcement problem it is,” Mr. Christie replied, without commenting on the FedEx remark.)

Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida disputed Ms. Calderón’s question about his state’s new African American history standards, calling her premise a hoax “perpetrated by Kamala Harris.” (In fact, the quotation was drawn directly from the standards.) The question led to one of the more memorable moments of the evening: Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina, the only Black candidate onstage, jumped in to declare, “There is not a redeeming quality in slavery,” drawing sustained applause from the audience.

Some conservatives watching along took umbrage. “Another weird question,” a reporter for the conservative Daily Signal wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, after Ms. Calderón asked former Vice President Mike Pence about violent hate crimes against L.G.B.T.Q. people.

More often than not, the candidates did not directly respond to Ms. Calderón’s inquiries. And several times, Ms. Calderón — along with her fellow moderators, Dana Perino of Fox News and Stuart Varney of Fox Business — ran into trouble maintaining order. The candidates repeatedly interrupted questions and spoke over one another, with Ms. Perino forced to issue a stern reminder of the rules.

“We’re going to have to cut your mic, and I don’t want to do that,” she warned at one point, which led to some settling down.

Ms. Calderón was born in Colombia and started her career as a broadcaster in Medellín. She joined Telemundo in 2001 and became a co-host of Univision’s evening news program in 2017. She also moderated a Democratic primary debate in March 2020, presiding along with CNN’s Dana Bash and Jake Tapper over the final meeting between Joseph R. Biden Jr. and Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

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Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (7)

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:42 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:42 p.m. ET

Anjali Huynh

Reporting on national politics

In a post-debate Fox News interview with Sean Hannity, Ron DeSantis suggested that Hannity moderate a one-on-one debate between himself and Donald Trump, much like the debate that will take place in November between DeSantis and Gavin Newsom, the California governor. “I think he owes it to our voters to come and make the case,” DeSantis said.

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:27 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:27 p.m. ET

Michael Crowley

“As the U.N. ambassador, you literally spent $50,000 on curtains.”

— Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina

This is false.

Shortly before Nikki R. Haley became ambassador to the United Nations, the State Department leased a new official ambassador’s residence in Manhattan, and allocated $52,701 for the installation of customized window curtains in the high-rise apartment. But those decisions were made by the State Department during the Obama administration and not by Ms. Haley.

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:20 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:20 p.m. ET

Ken Bensinger and Jennifer Medina

The debate brought sharp questions from outside the Fox News comfort zone.

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Perhaps the most surprising aspect of Wednesday’s Republican debate was the choice of topics from the moderators.

Well into the event’s second hour, the seven presidential candidates on the stage were being served a steady diet of questions on Latinos’ rising concerns about gun violence, soaring income inequality, child care and the possibility of granting citizenship to undocumented immigrants — hardly the fare one might expect from hosts at Fox Business Network.

The questions stood in stark contrast to those from last month’s debate in Milwaukee. There, candidates were tossed the conservative red meat that is more typical for such a forum, with topics including George Soros, abortion bans and the Jan. 6 attack.

But this time around, Fox wasn’t running the debate by itself. Sharing the moderator’s table was Univision’s Ilia Calderón, who seemed to push the focus outside the Republican comfort zone with questions about “a path to citizenship for 11 million undocumented immigrants,” how to respond to the end of the DACA immigration policy, and bankruptcies caused by the soaring cost of health care.

“The richest 1 percent now controls one-fifth of all income,” the moderator and Fox Business host Stuart Varney asked former Vice President Mike Pence. “You said you side with American workers. But you also support how these companies operate. Which is it?”

Dana Perino, who served as White House press secretary under President George W. Bush and now works as a host on Fox News, struck a similar note in asking Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina where he stood on the rising cost of child care.

“You had an effort to broaden eligibility for child care assistance; that failed,” she said. “For the moms and dads out there who are worried, what can you tell them if you were not able to get that through Congress — how could you do it as president?”

Most pointed throughout the evening, however, was Ms. Calderón.

What, she asked Gov. Doug Burgum of North Dakota, “is your specific plan to curb gun violence?”

But the sharp questions did not always draw sharp answers.

Mr. Burgum, who signed a proclamation in 2021 naming North Dakota a “Second Amendment sanctuary state,” turned to a familiar retort. The solution to gun violence, he said, was to “get back to behavioral health and mental health.”

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Sept. 27, 2023, 11:19 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:19 p.m. ET

Michael Crowley

“They’ve sent money to pay bureaucrats’ pensions and salaries and funding small businesses halfway around the world.”

— Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida

This requires context.

The United States has sent more than $26 billion in economic aid to Ukraine since early 2022, much of it for what is known as “direct budget support.” Ukraine’s government uses that money to fund basic operations like schools, hospitals and firefighting. It also goes to prop up the country’s economy, which contracted by about 30 percent last year after Russia’s invasion.

In addition, the U.S. Agency for International Development is providing aid to small Ukrainian businesses to keep them afloat. The overall goal is to prevent an economic and social collapse that could quickly lead to military defeat. Ukraine cannot survive on its own without economic aid.

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:14 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:14 p.m. ET

Lisa Friedman

“We achieved energy independence. We became a net exporter of energy for the first time in 75 years. But on Day 1, Joe Biden declared war on energy.”

— Former Vice President Mike Pence

This is misleading.

“Energy independence” is a political phrase: It does not mean that the United States doesn’t import oil — that hasn’t been true in nearly a century. But some people — particularly politicians — use the term to mean that the United States exports more energy than it imports. It is accurate that the milestone was hit in 2019 under the Trump administration, though most energy experts credit the fracking boom of the last decade and not any specific Trump-era policies.

Read the full fact check.

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Sept. 27, 2023, 11:08 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:08 p.m. ET

Jazmine Ulloa

Vivek Ramaswamy is attacked over China, Ukraine and TikTok.

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Vivek Ramaswamy was a standout last month in the first Republican presidential debate. In the second debate on Wednesday, he was a target.

Nikki Haley, Tim Scott and even the typically mild-mannered former Vice President Mike Pence all took swipes at Mr. Ramaswamy, a 38-year-old entrepreneur and a political newcomer who has staked out some populist positions that defy traditional Republican ideology.

The attacks were broad and searing. Mr. Ramaswamy was hit on his business dealings with China, his pledges to cut off aid to Ukraine and even his presence on TikTok.

“Honestly, every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber,” Ms. Haley said, criticizing his use of TikTok.

In response to a question about why he disagreed with Mr. Ramaswamy’s pledge to end birthright citizenship for the children of undocumented immigrants, Mr. Scott turned to Mr. Ramaswamy’s last debate performance.

“We think about the fact that Vivek said we are all good people, and I appreciate that, because at the last debate he said we were all bought and paid for,” Mr. Scott said, adding that he did not understand how Mr. Ramaswamy could say that when he himself did business with the “Chinese Communist Party and the same people that funded Hunter Biden millions of dollars.”

Mr. Ramaswamy argued that he had pulled his company out of China when other C.E.O.s had not. But Mr. Pence dug in further, bringing up the fact that Mr. Ramaswamy had acknowledged he did not vote until relatively recently.

“Let me say, I’m glad Vivek pulled out of his business deal in 2018 in China,” Mr. Pence said. “That must’ve been around the time you decided to start voting in presidential elections.”

Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (14)

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:06 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:06 p.m. ET

Reid Epstein

Reporting on the Biden campaign

Sean Hannity, on the Fox postgame show, said there were “a couple of people who didn’t have any business being on that stage.” He did not name names.

Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (15)

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:06 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:06 p.m. ET

Lisa Lerer

Reporting on national politics

A few people had a good night — Haley, Scott, DeSantis — but it’s hard to see how this changes the fundamental reality of a front-runner leading by roughly 40 points. But hey, we’ll probably see most of this crowd again. Next time in Miami.

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Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (16)

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:03 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:03 p.m. ET

Reid Epstein

Reporting on the Biden campaign

If anything, this debate showed that Nikki Haley and Chris Christie are the most nimble debaters and are very skilled at creating memorable moments for themselves. It probably won’t matter that much, given Trump’s substantial advantage, but for Haley, at least, this is two solid debate performances in a row.

Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (17)

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:02 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:02 p.m. ET

Astead W. Herndon

Gov. Gavin Newsom of California is joining Fox News for the post-debate reaction.

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:02 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:02 p.m. ET

Dana Goldstein

— Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida

This is true.

U.S. News & World Report ranks Florida as the top state for education overall. On higher education, the state is ranked No. 1, with the publication citing the relatively affordable tuition and fees at Florida public universities and colleges. For pre-K-12 education, the publication ranks Florida 14th among states.

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Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (19)

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:01 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:01 p.m. ET

Alan Rappeport

Washington reporter

And that is a wrap.

Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (20)

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:01 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 11:01 p.m. ET

Alan Rappeport

Washington reporter

Ramaswamy says that respecting Trump’s legacy is the right thing to do, but that it is time to take his America First policy to the next level.

Sept. 27, 2023, 10:59 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 10:59 p.m. ET

Angelo Fichera

“Congress has only delivered a budget on time four times in 40 years.”

— Nikki Haley, former governor of South Carolina

This is true.

Congress has approved all of its required appropriations bills on time only four times in the last 46 years, according to the Pew Research Center. The last time was 1997.

Sept. 27, 2023, 7:31 p.m. ET

Sept. 27, 2023, 7:31 p.m. ET

Jeremy W. Peters

Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist.

Image

The nearly two years that Dana Perino, once the White House press secretary for President George W. Bush, spent taking questions from reporters in the briefing room may be good preparation for her next act: moderating the Republican presidential debate on Wednesday in Simi Valley, Calif.

It will be the biggest moment for Ms. Perino at Fox News since she began co-hosting “The Five” in 2011. Not known for being as provocative or partisan as many of her colleagues behind the desk, Ms. Perino, 51, has spent a good part of the last decade trying to thrive as a Bush Republican working for a network where loyalty to former President Donald J. Trump is often the ticket to high ratings and the career advancement that accompanies them.

Current and former colleagues said that she had managed to persevere at Fox by being neither a Trump supplicant nor a fierce critic. During the raucous discussions on “The Five,” she can often be seen ducking the fray, flashing a knowing smile as her co-hosts mock Mr. Trump’s liberal antagonists.

And she feels no need to deliver the pro-Trump monologues that other conservative hosts have made a staple of their programs.

“If she tried to fake it, she knows people would see through her,” said Tony Fratto, a former Bush administration official who worked with Ms. Perino in the White House and remains a friend. Mr. Fratto said that Ms. Perino’s independence was something she had been determined to keep while working her way up at the network.

“She’s very rational and respectful of people with different views,” he said.

Ms. Perino said she believed that the last debate, which was hosted by her Fox News colleagues Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum, was not particularly successful for the candidates because they spent so much time interrupting each other.

“The candidates made a decision to break the rules, and to talk over each other,” she said.

She will not shy away from interrupting them if they do the same, she said. And she does not fear playing the role of schoolmarm if she needs to.

“I’m happy to be that,” she said, adding that she hopes that isn’t necessary. “I think that for them, they should not want that either, right, because it didn’t help them. If you think about that debate, there was no consensus of who won.”

Dana Perino, one of the moderators, is facing her biggest test as a journalist. (2024)

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